Over at Joe’s site Queer Horror Movies, we dug into the first five episodes of Love, Victor, Hulu’s spiritual successor to Love, Simon. If you’re curious about the show, go read our relatively spoiler free review.

In this article, we dig into episodes 6-10 and get spoilerific about the themes and plot points.

Spoilers for the entire season obviously follow…

TERRY

Oh, boy, Joe. I don’t even know where to begin. When we covered the first five episodes of Love, Victor, we bemoaned a focus on the adults over the kids, swooned over Victor--and in particular, the actor Michael Cimino--and cheered that the show seemed more interested in tackling the spectrum that is sexuality over the more gay coming out experience of Love, Simon. In fact, Love, Victor began with Victor messaging Simon (Nick Robinson) that this was Victor’s story and that it is completely different from Simon’s.

That first episode lied.

Okay, that might be too harsh, but where I was so excited to see how the show would tackle a character who didn’t know how to identify (or whether identifying as one part of the LGBTQ+ experience were even necessary), the back half has established that, nope, this is pretty much the same story that Simon found himself navigating. Sure, there’s the differences we already touched on in the first half of this review, like the fact that Victor isn’t white and isn’t rich and doesn’t come from a super liberal family. But, really, while the flavoring is a little different, this is still run-of-the-mill chicken breast. Emphasis on the chicken.

I guess I should back up, though. Episode 6 “Creekwood Nights” begins the last half of the season with Victor and Mia (Rachel Hilson) officially in a relationship but Victor isn’t acting the way Mia expects him to. Their kisses are still incredibly G-rated affairs, he doesn’t like PDA, and the way they “sexy text” involves him responding to her “I want your muscley legs” with a thumbs up. We also learn that Mia isn’t a virgin and she lies to Lake (Bebe Wood) that it was some rando counselor at camp...but c’mon. We know before it’s even announced that it was with Andrew (Mason Gooding), the - in Felix (Anthony Turpel)’s terms - cliched jock out of an 80s movie.

This episode is full of whiplash because while the first five episodes involve Victor’s exploration of his sexuality, it’s quickly very evident that he considers himself gay. It’s been a little bit since I watched the first five episodes, so I had to go look back over our review to verify the quick 180 the show did in “Creekwood Nights.”

And it’s not just that.

We discussed how G-rated the first five episodes were and wondered why it wasn’t on Disney and this episode again feels like a whiplash of themes. All of a sudden their teacher (played by the amazing Ali Wong) is discussing vaginas and fallopian tubes, Mia discusses how her and Victor’s tongues occasionally grazed each other, Lake is using eggplant emojis, Simon’s responding to Victor with gifs of rolls of condoms...and if I didn’t know any better, I’d hazard a guess that the creators knew five episodes in that they weren’t going to be on Disney+ and upped the thematic content a bit.

I also started disliking Victor. That’s not necessarily a critique of the show because I think some of it is intentional. But for someone who has spent five episodes showcasing how caring he is of others (he’s the family “fixer” who thinks of others, remember), Victor quickly becomes incredibly selfish. Again, this is not a critique necessarily. He’s a well of emotions, has discovered love (or, at least, lust) for the first time and it’s a drug that makes you act in selfish ways. I know this feeling quite well. But when Lake becomes the most rational person by telling him, “This crap you’re pulling? It’s cruel” and Simon tells Victor that he needs to decide what to do before someone gets hurt...I mean, come on dude.

And that’s all in one episode!

I’m feeling very judgy right now, Joe, even though I have to admit that I did like the last half of this season. So I’m hoping you’ll pull me out of it. What are your feelings overall on this back half of the season? Did you like seeing Simon spending more time with hunk Benji (George Sear), particularly when they have to go on a road trip? Can we talk about Lake? And would you want a potential lover to compare you to an Angler fish?

JOE

To use my favourite clichéd expression, Terry, this is tricky. You and I had several conversations - both online and on a forthcoming episode of Hazel & Katniss & Harry & Starr - about what we liked and disliked about the series, but also our hopes for what might happen in the back half of the season.

To be honest, I don’t feel dissimilar to you. There’s still plenty to like about Love, Victor but there are a lot of beats (particularly in the back half of the season) that rubbed me the wrong way. I’ve spent a fair amount of time processing why some of these creative decisions wound up bothering me so much and the simplest explanation I came up with is that Isaac Aptaker and Elizabeth Berger wound up taking the show in a different direction than I anticipated and I am still wrapping my head around it. The more complicated answer is that, particularly as a queer viewer, this is a more “difficult” representation than I was ready for.

The sad fact is that there’s no denying that there’s a kind of character assassination happening with poor Victor here. Michael Cimino will never not be delightful, but I was honestly pissed at Victor by the finale (to such an extent that I couldn’t enjoy the swoon-worthy kissing he’s engaging in with Benji). Perhaps it’s a testament to what the creative folks have done and Hilson’s performance, but I spent most of episodes six through ten feeling for Mia. That empathy for her wound up overshadowing nearly all of the positive stuff Victor experienced on his trip to NY (which, sidebar, WUT?!).

Part of this is definitely a commentary by Love, Victor about the dangers of keeping secrets (a theme that appears in nearly every character’s narrative - from Mia’s dad’s secret engagement to Lake’s abusive body shaming mother to Felix’s hoarder mother). Obviously if Creekwood were the “gay Mecca” that Ms. Albright declares it is in episode one, Victor would feel more comfortable admitting who he is, rather than hiding behind a fruit fly relationship with Mia.

But a large part of the blame ultimately resides with Victor, who despite Lake (and later Felix)’s pleas, always prioritizes his own needs and desires (for Benji, for New York) rather than own up to Mia about what’s going on.

And sure, it makes for “great” (ie: conventional) television because it’s conflict-driven. But it also, frustratingly, turns Victor into a despicable asshat. It’s hard to root for Victor to be true to himself when you’re so angry at how he’s treating Mia, even if he doesn’t mean for that to happen (in tried and true fashion, he continually argues that he’s protecting her with his lies).

It’s the difference between impact and intent and Victor, in true teen fashion, is too self-obsessed to realize how much his actions affect Mia. In those last few episodes, it even winds up hurting Pilar (Isabella Ferreira), who fixates on the cracks in Victor’s relationship in an effort to distract herself from their parents’ crumbling marriage.

Terry, I wonder if part of our struggle is that Love, Victor is this beacon of light in a sea of underrepresentation, so having a morally murky protagonist is frustrating. Have we fallen into a trap wherein we don’t want a complicated protagonist who doesn’t always do the right thing because we still don’t feel like we’ve fulfilled our Love, Simon-esque fantasy quota yet? Or are we just tired of these familiar YA tropes, wherein characters don’t tell each other things because it heightens the dramatic stakes?

Even the disintegration of Benji’s relationship with Derek (Lucas Gage) and Benji’s effort to distance himself from Victor in the wake of their espresso road trip plays out as a bit forced (as in: why don’t these kids just *talk* to each other?!). The reality is that we shouldn’t get so upset; it’s not as though we haven’t seen this before. I’m trying to process why this bothers me so much more than any other relationship conflict on Riverdale, or Buffy, or Dawson’s Creek, or My So-Called Life.

Perhaps I’ve opened up a whole other can of worms, Terry. Does any of this resonate with you? And broadening the scope: how do you feel about the revelations involving Lake and Felix’s respective mama drama or Mia and Veronica (Sophia Bush)? What did you think of the resolution of the parental discord? And, perhaps on a lighter note, do you have some positive thoughts about 1x08’s “Boy’s Trip”, the New York-set episode, where Simon and Bram (Keiynan Lonsdale) appear in the flesh?

TERRY

It sounds like we’re both struggling, Joe. For me, it might be because I saw myself in Victor and it’s raising uncomfortable thoughts about the way I was...not in highschool, but as an adult, figuring myself out while leading people on. Here’s the thing: I do think this is an authentic portrayal that’s played out in highschool friendships and adult relationships. Trying to understand yourself, particularly when Victor so desperately wants to be...and I’m using heavy quotations here…”normal.” So much of his angst about “liking boys” stems from this heteronormative, deeply religious and conservative life his family has provided him. And while it’s easy to get angry at Victor (and, gurl, believe me...I was angry), his family life has helped cement and inform the way he acts.

We have so many family secrets. Infidelity. The real reason the family had to move. Lack of trust and lying about that lack of trust. Even rebellious tongue piercings. The family as we’re currently seeing it is nothing but a stack of lies...and let’s be honest, slathered with selfish behavior. Armando (James Martinez) doesn’t want Isabel (Ana Ortiz) to teach piano lessons because it’s the way she got into the affair in the first place. He’s too proud to consider the fact that the family needs income and his performative machismo is purely for selfish reasons. And Pilar, who’s still so focused on the life she was pulled from, lashes out at everyone because she’s so focused on her own pain that she doesn’t see anyone else’s.

So, I guess what I’m saying is that I can understand where Victor’s selfishness comes from and can appreciate it...even though it really soured my opinion on him. Which again...opened up some uncomfortable thoughts of my own.

As for Lake and Felix...boy, I do not like Lake. And it has nothing to do with her assessment that 47 Meters Down is better than Jaws.

….ok, it might slightly have something to do with that.

I don’t think the writers (nor Bebe Wood) know exactly what to do with the character. As the season took a more grounded turn and felt like it was trying to get out of the Disney Channel sitcom mold, she started sticking out like a sore thumb. I think she’s the only one who continued to think she was in a Disney+ comedy because she turned cartoony. I did like the semi-sweet moment where both Lake and Felix were shown each other’s darker homelife and how living in those situations affects how they interact with the world. Which then also presents an interesting foil to Victor’s life and provides more examples to support how family situations can affect how you act/approach life.

But man, Joe. The show turned from me being so invested in Victor’s internal struggle to feeling so incredibly bad for Mia. Hilson turns out a perfect performance by the end of the season when she walks out to see Victor and Benji kissing. The mix of shock, confusion, acceptance, understanding and, most importantly, searing pain got me choked up, particularly in the brief moment where she almost decides to confront them but then turns away and leaves. I wanted to reach through the screen and hug her.

As for Episode 1.08 “Boys Trip”...I’m mixed on it, Joe. I wanted a full episode of Victor experiencing gay life in the city. Just an episode fully centered around his experience that would maybe help provide him some clarity. Instead, we got brief moments of NYC mixed with a Breakfast Club bottle episode...and I just can’t with that, Joe. I wanted to know more about Justin “with the soft J like zhuzh,” Ivy and Kim (They/them/theirs). I wanted Victor to let his freak flag fly.

Before I toss it back to you, Joe, I’m going to give the season as a whole a B-...which might not be fair because I don’t think, thematically at least, the show the writers were writing was the one I was expecting. And that expectation has kind of dampened my view. But I also do think that some of the character beats, particularly when it comes to Victor’s selfish behavior in the back half, weren’t completely earned, which added to my frustration. I do hope it gets renewed and that Hulu can be a bit more adventurous in the storytelling in season two because I did find myself invested in the characters.

But what about you, Joe? Did you like the trip to NYC/Breakfast Club purgatory? Did you scream when Katya Zamolodchikova showed up? What did you think of Simon’s explanation of using his friends to help Victor? And, adding onto that, how Bram showed him that there’s no one way to be queer? What do you hope we’ll see in a potential second season? And can we give Mia a hug?

JOE

I, too, would have preferred a completely stand-alone episode of Victor in New York, particularly since so much of his (over)reaction at the truth that Simon leaned on his friends for counsel wound up feeling rushed and not-quite-satisfactory. Even Katya’s brief performance and Victor’s appearance on-stage had a quick “ok, good, tearjerker moment achieved, now move to the next scene” vibe because there’s a need to rush back to Creekwood to check in on Felix, Lake, Mia and Andrew.

More than ever in that episode, the confines of the “teen show” tropes felt like a locked room that the show needed to escape from. We chatted about the Breakfast Club episode of I Am Not Okay With This and how pivotal that episode was to the show’s development. Here it feels like the Saturday detention is simply part of a list to be checked off, particularly Andrew’s 180 degree about face when Felix confronts him about the one-testicle nickname. The resolution is facile because suddenly we’re meant to excuse Andrew’s terrible behaviour and think of him as a suitable love interest for Mia? No, thank you.

These moments are frustrating, because there’s clearly a ton of good stuff going on in the show. Do I want to see Mia and Andrew attempt to navigate a relationship? Sure. Do I want to see Benji exchange a boyfriend who is publicly, proudly “out” for a closeted boy who’s very new to queer life? Ehhh...sure. Do I want to see Lake and Felix’s suddenly public relationship flaunted across Creekwood Secrets? HELL NO.

If anything, Love, Victor feels very much uncertain of itself, Terry. You mentioned the awkwardness of straddling two networks and how that tension is seeping into storylines (and even Wood’s performance). That’s tolerable for a first season that’s experiencing some growing pains; my concern is that we won’t see a Kimmy Schmidt style maturity growth between seasons if/when the show returns and that would be disastrous.

Love, Victor is unequivocally a “good” show, but it *could* be great. To do so, however, will require some hard creative decisions. That means figuring out which stories it wants to tell, and possibly asking the harder question: does this story need to be told? For example: do I want to see Pilar bitching as she travels back and forth between Isabel and Armando’s new places?* Again HELL NO. But if Pilar actually gets a real storyline like, say, striking up a relationship with Felix, then I could be swayed.

*Sidebar: I know it’s less sexy, but counseling is *infinitely* cheaper than separation. Isabel and Armando need to learn how to communicate with each other because dividing the family between two households is not a great first step, particularly if they’re already stretched financially.

With all that said, the show remains highly watchable and I like nearly all of the actors/characters - even those trapped in groan-worthy storylines (except you Lake! I hope they write you out between seasons!)

Overall, this is firmly a B for me. It’s cute, saccharine, and romantic as often as it is frustrating and clichéd. In many ways, Love, Victor is the same as its main character: a work in progress.